I see the two groups as different.'

Many people that could care less about God or Jesus serve people.

Many people that  Love God and Jesus don't do what they should for the hungry.

So,  to me those two groups will be :

1. those that accept Christ as their lord and savior.

2.  Those that do not.

I don't see any other groups.

The disciples asked Jesus when the end of times would come here is his reply,  No one knows the exact day and hour there are no binoculars to spot it from a distance despite occasional fundamentalist claims to the contrary.  the only thing a person can do is to prepare Simply make sure day in and day out that the poor and the suffering are the center of your concern.  When he does come in all his glory all nations will be assembled before him.  He will divide them into two groups and tell them the whole difference is based on how they treated him in the person of the hungry, the thirsty, the stranger, the naked, the ill, the imprisoned.  If you don't serve these people you don't serve him because he is in them.

Greetings Brethren,

Peace be unto you. There are some that believe that once saved always saved.  Maybe this accounts for so many lost Preachers and Church leaders and Church houses. However I believe the Bible is clear on our salvation coming with on-going responsibility. Meanwhile the Day of Judgment is the final word on our free gift of salvation known to the righteous.

Peace,

Brother Carl 17 August 2008

My Beloved Brethren,

No one is automatically saved merely through a confession to love Christ. There is no such doctrine as "Once Saved Always Saved." However many people beleive this false and unscriptural doctrine.

Your free gift to salvation comes with responsiblity. But, we can not decide or determine how God through Jesus will record or bring up our sins at the judgment.

The responsiblity of all believers is noted in the Bible. Therefore your salvation or being saved is on-going. For the record Jesus Christ died giving us the right or opportunity to be saved if we take the necessary steps in our on-going service to the Lord.

Peace,

Brother Carl

Lets describe fruit biblically.

Giving?  helping?  teaching?  speech?   souls helped to find salvation?

what?

Well Good Morning All,

    ND don't take this personal, but I never condemned you for wearing a cross. I told you it was a pagan symbol which it is but condemn you I did not.

Second, I do not attend church at Higher Ground, for personal reasons I choose not to.

Third, well there is no third....except try to have a good weekend.

NDFinfan.  Thats how I feel about it.  Great post.  Are you a teacher?

Anyway,  I feel John that those questions I asked are fine for these forums.  We talk about worse here.

I can usually know a person by how he feels about those questions.  So, please.    tell us how you feel about them.

thanks,

vivian

Second Coming passages are in the context of the setting up of the Kingdom while the Rapture passages make no mention of the Kingdom. "Second advent passages are invariably followed by talk of setting up the kingdom after the Lord's return (e.g., Matt. 24:31; 25:31ff; Zech. 14; Joel 3; Rev. 19-20). So, the second advent is preparatory to the establishment of the millennial kingdom. On the other hand, clear rapture passages give no hint that after the rapture the Lord establishes the kingdom." (John Feinberg, p. 198)

Glorified bodies at the Rapture "It is very clear from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51ff that at the rapture those gathered to the Lord will be glorified. On the other hand, second advent passages say nothing about anyone (living or dead) receiving a glorified body." (John Feinberg, p. 198) "Nowhere in the texts that deal with the Second Advent is there the teaching about the translation of living saints." (Paul Feinberg, p. 82)

No mention of meeting in the air in Second Coming passages Nowhere in the Second Coming passages is a meeting in the air mentioned.

Differences in timing of resurrections "There seems to be an inconsistency between the time of the resurrection at the Rapture and at the Second Coming. In the central Rapture passage dealing with this issue, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, the time of the resurrection of dead saints in clearly stated to be during the descent of Christ of to the earth. Those raptured, living and dead saints, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Contrast that information with what is found in Revelation 19-20. There, the order seems to be: the descent of Christ, the slaying of His enemies, the casting of the Beast and the False Prophet into the lake of fire, the binding of Satan, and then the resurrection of the saints. It seems as though the resurrection of the dead will be during the descent at the Rapture, but after the descent at the Second Coming." (Paul Feinberg, p. 84)

Differences in destiny at time of comings "There seems to be an inconsistency between the destination of those who are raptured in the Rapture and the destination of those who participate in the Second Coming. In the posttribulation understanding of the events that surround the Second Coming, the church will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and will immediately accompany Him on His continued descent to the earth. Compare that with John 14:3. In the Rapture the Lord is going to come and take those raptured to be with Him. The clear implication is that the raptured saints will be taken to heaven, not earth. If this is so, then the destination of those caught up in the Rapture will be heaven. According to the Second Coming passages, however, the saints involved are headed for the earth." (Paul Feinberg, p. 84)

The role of the angels in the comings At the Second Coming, the angels are the ones who will gather the elect (Matt. 24:31). At the Rapture Jesus is the direct agent of the gathering (1 Thess. 4:16).

The "mystery" nature of the Rapture "Paul speaks of the Rapture as a 'mystery' (1 Cor. 15:51-54), that is, a truth not revealed until it was disclosed by the apostles (Col. 1:26). Thus the Rapture is said to be a newly revealed mystery, making it a separate event. The Second Coming on the other hand, was predicted in the Old Testament (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4). (Thomas Ice in "The Biblical Basis for the Pretribulational Rapture," in Basic Theology Applied, p. 269)

No mention of the Church in Revelation 4-18 Revelation 4-18 gives the most detailed account of the seven year Tribulation period. If the Church were to be in the Tribulation period, surely one would expect at least one reference to the Church in this time period. The Church, however, which is referred to nineteen times in the first three chapters of Revelation, is suddenly silent and never referred to in chapters 4-18. "It is remarkable and totally unexpected that John would shift from detailed instructions for the Church to absolute silence about the Church for the subsequent 15 chapters if, in fact, the Church continued into the tribulation." (Richard L. Mayhue, Snatched Before the Storm, p. 8)

Pretribulationism best explains the presence of nonglorified saints who will enter the Millennial Kingdom. The Bible indicates that living unbelievers will be removed from the earth and judged at the end of the Tribulation. Yet the Bible also teaches that children will be born during the Millennium and that people will be capable of sin (Isa. 65:20 and Rev. 20:7-10). How can this be? The pretribulational view allows for people to be saved after the Rapture and during the Tribulation who will then enter the

Millennial
Kingdom

in nonglorified bodies. As John Feinberg says, "According to pretribulationism, after the rapture the Tribulation begins. The gospel is preached throughout the Tribulation and there are some who believe. Though many who believe are killed (e.g., Revelation 13:7, 15), not all believers are killed during the Tribulation. Those who live through the Tribulation go into the kingdom in natural bodies. In addition, some people accept the Lord when he returns at the end of the Tribulation (e.g., Zech. 12:10). Many of these people do not die at that point, and there is no evidence that they are given a glorified body when they receive Christ. These people are also available to go into the kingdom in natural bodies. For a pretrib position, there are seven years to get people saved prior to the kingdom, and some of those can go into the kingdom in natural bodies. . . . The position that is really in trouble with respect to this issue is the posttribulation rapture view. If everyone who goes at the rapture is glorified, and if the rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation, who is left to enter the kingdom in natural bodies? All believers will have been raptured and glorified by that time." (Italics mine) (John Feinberg, p. 201)

Lonewolfie.   Glad you said that because it is true. 

Except the dems want to give these slaves voting rights (as long as they vote dem)

Now, concerning the rapture of the church, for those that do not believe there is any scriptural support...please read and digest this. Remember, this is a difficult subject, focus also on the Jewish traditions that apply to a wedding ceremony between the bridegroom, the bride, and the father of the bridegroom. All are key to understanding with regards to the marriage supper of the Lamb.

A Biblical defense of Pretribulationism Of these five views why is Pretribulationism to be preferred? The following are biblical evidences for a Pretribulational Rapture:

The pillars of Pretribulationism The foundation of Pretribulationism has four elements:

Consistent literal interpretation The literal method of interpretation attempts to explain the original sense of the writer according to the normal usages of words and language. The literal method interprets all of the Bible in a normal and plain way, all the time understanding that the Bible, at times, uses symbols, figures of speech and types.

Distinction between and the Church The more one recognizes the biblical distinction between and the church, the clearer one will be able to see God's distinct plan for each group. According to Thomas Ice, "If Israel and the church are not distinguished, then there is no basis for seeing a future for or for the church as a new and unique people of God. If and the church are merged into a single program, then the Old Testament promises for will never be fulfilled and are usually seen by replacement theologians as spiritually fulfilled by the church. The merging of Israel's destiny into the church not only makes into one what the Scriptures understand as two, but it also removes a need for future restoration of God's original elect people in order to fulfill literally His promise that they will one day be the head and not the tail (Deuteronomy 28:13).
The more that believers see a distinct plan for and a distinct plan for the church, the more they realize that when the New Testament speaks to the church it is describing a separate destiny and hope for her. The church becomes more distinct in the plan of God. 's future includes the seven-year tribulation, and then shortly before Christ's return to
Jerusalem
she will be converted to Jesus as her Messiah. . . . On the other hand, the distinct hope for the church is Christ's any-moment return.
Thus, a distinction between and the church, as taught in the Bible, provides a basis of support for the pretribulational rapture. Those who merge the two programs cannot logically support the biblical arguments for pretribulationism." (Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, The Truth About The Rapture, pp. 25-26)

Futurism Pretribulationism takes a futuristic interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 and the book of Revelation. Daniel 9:24-27 gives the seven-year chronological framework of the Tribulation while Revelation 6-18 details the judgments that make up this period. Futurism sees prophecy as being fulfilled in the future, namely with the Tribulation period, the Second Coming of Christ to earth, and the

Millennial
Kingdom

. Futurism is opposed to preterism, which sees prophecy as already being fulfilled in the past, predominately in A.D. 70. Futurism is also opposed to historicism which sees prophecy being fulfilled in the current Church Age.

Premillennialism At the end of the seven year Tribulation period, Jesus Christ will return to earth in power and glory to set up an earthly Kingdom from Jerusalem that will last for a literal one thousand years (see Rev. 20:1-6).

Proper methodology for addressing the rapture issue What is the proper method for addressing this issue of the timing of the Rapture?

Examine the Rapture and Second Coming passages Go first to the portions of Scripture that speak directly about the Rapture and the return of the Lord to earth. Study John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 for the Rapture. Examine Zechariah 14:1-21; Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-27; and Revelation 19 for the Second Coming to earth.

Examine implications of conclusions Proper methodology does not stop with an examination of the primary texts addressing an issue. As John Feinberg says, "While one should begin with passages that speak directly about the doctrine under consideration, one must also pay attention to the implications of the doctrine. This is especially important if, as in the case of the rapture, the passages about the rapture and return of the Lord do not determine the question of the rapture's timing in relation to the time of the Tribulation. . . . Implications and relations of doctrines to one another are crucial. If one's position on a given theological issue is correct, it will fit with other known theological and biblical truths rather than contradict them. (John S. Feinberg, "Arguing for the Rapture: Who Must Prove What and How" in, When the Trumpet Sounds, Thomas Ice and Timothy eds. p. 191)

Putting it all together "The key point to remember is that proper theological methodology dare not allow us to ignore either the rapture and parousia passages or the doctrines that have implications for one's views on the rapture and second advent. Although study should begin with passages that speak directly to the topic at hand, both are equally important. It is surely no victory to uphold one's views on the timing of the rapture at the expense of denying what God's Word says, for example, about the relation of the church to God's judgmental wrath." (John Feinberg, p. 192)