well then tell your story. I will listen.

 

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Another point I want to touch on is that I don't believe there was malicious intent. Over zealous law enforcement and prosecutors are too blame, but at best it is negligence. Which brings me to my second point. WE ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. We don't practice that anymore, we are guilty in the eyes of law enforcement, prosecutors, media, and public opinion until proven innocent. Even then a lot of times the public and media in generally don't care, and you are still guilty.

The fix is pretty simple. In school while people are training to be judges, prosecutors, cops, feds, etc, they need to have INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, bashed into their heads. Then as they work in their respective fields they need to critiqued and punished for not following this creed. As a disclaimer most of those in the fields of justice in general are not bad. But there are cases such as these in this thread that show what happen when we become over Zealous. Now on too the media and public need a bigger share in the blame of this, and a much larger share than justice employees. If you are charged with any case that is anywhere near high profile there is no way you can get a fair trial. Because news outlets do not share counter evidence. They get the public riled up with fantastic claims, and we the public believe it. Then we decide if some is guilty long before any trial has taken place.

The Duke rape case is a perfect example of how an over zealous prosecutor and police coupled with media reports from people like Nancy Grace, and public like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson jumped all over these innocent boys. They are very lucky not to be in prison right now. Reply...

I agree what happened was a tragedy and could have been prevented. I really feel tho, no matter what happened there, there was going to be a blood bath.

Actually what brought the attention of the Davidians to the ATF was a mail worker who accidentally broke a box and load of inert grenades fell out. That and the automatic weapons firing, which was heard by neighbors. Weapons were apart of that search warrant as well.

As far as the religion part, I said as long as your religion doesn't infringe upon other's rights it is protected.

To me that video of the Davidians talking about Koresh was pretty damning. That video alone probably would have gotten him convicted on child sex abuse. It is unfortunate that he never had the chance to face the court, and even sadder that all that innocent blood was shed. Reply...

The Davidians were armed and in position for a fight. There is only rumor on who fired at who first.

What about the video made by Koresh's followers and released during the siege, Koresh stated he'd been told by God to procreate with the women in the group to establish a "House of David," his "Special People." This involved married couples in the group dissolving their marriages and agreeing that only Koresh could have sexual relations with the wives. On the tape, Koresh is also shown with several minors who claimed to have had babies fathered by Koresh. In total, Koresh had 14 children who stayed with him in the compound.

Besides allegations of sexual abuse, Koresh was accused of stockpiling illegal weapons. The Feds investigated these charges and obtained a warrant to search Koresh's compound. Former Davidian Marc Breault claimed that Koresh had "...M16 lower receiver parts" (when the receiver is modified and these parts are added to an AR15 rifle it becomes a fully automatic weapon and is subject to the National Firearms Act and its $200 tax in the United States) Reply...

Boy I smell something weird here. The entire Medina Police Department? Has there really been a Medina police department. If so how many were actually employed during the "firing".

Darrell Graf is the former Chief of Police for the City of Medina, N.D., graduating from the North Dakota Law Enforcement Training Center in August of 1976. He is currently President and CEO of PEMNA Fire Apparatus, Ltd. in Fargo, N.D. He holds two patents on firefighting devices he invented, and in addition, is still active in fire and rescue training.

Steve Schnabel is the former Colonel of the police department for the City of Medina, N.D., graduating from the North Dakota Law Enforcement Training Center in April of 1981. He is also a staff sergeant for the North Dakota Army National Guard of which he has been a member for over 19 years. Steve is currently a customer service representative for a manufacturing company in Fargo, N.D.

Something smells fishy with this book. I guess I must go find and read it... Reply...

A good book to read on this subject is "It's All About Power". It is written by the two Medina Police Officers that were employed there when the Medina Incident happened.

I highly encourage you to obtain (library, etc.) a copy to read. Very informative with pictures.

 

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Even still they are still a state organization and falls out side the US military. Even if it is treated as a facet of the US military, because the governors have to approve of anything that happens.

The US Coast Guard is another agency that falls out side of Posse Comitatus...

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I have thought at one point or another that a federal tax is illegal. However some basic book work finds out that it is not. This is where the difference between statutory laws and common law come into play, and you can replace common law with constitutional law if it sounds better for you. Basically you the constitution sets up what the gov't can't do to you and what it can do.

Here are the Enumerated powers of congress:

To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

To borrow money on the credit of the United States

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States

To establish post offices and post roads

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years

To provide and maintain a navy

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles (16 km) square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings.



Gordon Kahl may have had all the best intentions in the world but he broke the law and was involved in not one but too fatal shootouts, and nothing he did prior could justify that.
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Just a minor point, Sick~0,

I think nearly every item the National Guard has possession of, is owned by the U.S. government.  That includes all weapons, vehicles, communication equipment and personal equipment (such as Gortex gear, sleeping bags, etc.). 

The Army National Guard is a component of the U.S. Army, and is not a separate entity owned by each state.  Each governor has certain powers to activate units as emergencies arise, but the same units can also be activated to Federal service by the Commander-in-Chief at any time.

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National Guard is separate from the US Military. It is a state organization. Reply...

Waco had accusations of Sexual Abuse which by all means needed to be investigated. That was the search warrant that was being served when they decided to open fire on the Feds. So no violation of church and state. To answer your question, a religion is free to practice as long as it does not violate personal freedoms.


Anyways Posse Comitatus from what I have read simply was a Sovereign Citizen group. Which by the way are highly racist. Even the Black Sovereign Citizen groups are racist.

The Posse Comitatus Act, said that the FEDERAL military could not deal in matters inside the US. How that has anything to do with statutory law I have never been able to figure out.
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Posse Comitatus Act is what they named there group after correct? Reply...

Furthermore the founder of the Posse Comitatus was a Silver Shirt. What is a silver shirt you say... Well a silver shirt was a Nazi-Inspired Fascist group that started in early 30's. On top of that they do not believe in any gov't beyond county. That the Sheriff could be removed by Posse and so forth. So it pretty obvious They have no respect for law enforcement or civility.

So sorry I am not a fan of Mr Kahl anyone in the Sovereign Citizen or Posse Comitatus movements.

On top of which we should talk about what the Posse Comitatus really is, which a group that believes in the Sovereign Citizen ideology. Which means they are only subject to common law and not statutory law. However they are basically completely discounting the entire 14th Amendment. Reply...

Ruby Ridge was a mess. People were arrested over this incident. The head of the FBI publicly denounced the actions taken. Also the gov't has settled with money with the Weavers and Harris.

Waco wouldn't have been a problem if you didn't start shooting at Officers and Feds. That said they could have just starved them out, there was no reason to go in after them. However what did you think was going to happen when open fire on them? That they were just going to let you be?

Philidelphia MOVE fire incident is another example of poor judgement.

If the gov't wanted to kill Kahl there were million different ways to do it with out involving a chance to get injured.

These are all results from poor judgement and execution and not malicious intent. Reply...

Boy, Gordon Kahl is a name I haven't heard for many years. Everyone, has their own ideas of what really went on and the truth will never come out, like so many other stories of mayhem by both the government and those involved, who felt they were right in what they did.  Waco and Ruby Ridge was also mentioned. Those stories will never expose the truth, also. Whatever black eyes these stories put on the government, is whitewashed and therefore, shoved under the rug.

I have another story that would put a black eye on the way the government works and I know most dont want to hear about and that is the accident 25 years ago on the Minot Air Force Base. There again, everyone has their own ideas of what really occurred. It has nothing to do with what is right or what is wrong. It comes down to what the government wants us to believe. They are good in putting blinders over our eyes.

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All I'm going to say is that there is so much more to the story than what you have summed up in one or two sentences. It didn't go down the way you just said. Not quite. It happened over a period of time as well.

I love vets, all vets. We have vets in our family. My dad was a vet. We have kids that are vets. I will never say a bad word about a vet. We owe our entire life style to the vets. God bless the vets, all vets.

There's really no point in even discussing Kahl or Weaver. You have your thoughts on it and I have mine. I know Weaver and Kahl weren't stand-up citizens and I know alot of people worship them. Alot of those same people would probably like to wear a white sheet if they could do it without their town knowing about it. Anonymous cowards is what they're called. G'nite... Reply...